2030 - No new ICE cars to be sold

We installed our own fast charger, plugging into a household socket takes far too long. We didn't get a subsidy and OH bought it on line at a good price.

There are problems with the charging infrastructure, hybrids are very popular and people like to top them up too on journeys so this can take up charging spots for EVs. Some cars require specific chargers. Some chargers aren't working, I wonder if the one at Cornwall Services has been fixed yet?! 

Newer cars are better at regeneration, in certain conditions we can add miles to our journeys just by driving the car in a different way.

I don't know why anyone would buy an EV without doing a lot of research first.

You have to remember that just like diesel and petrol you're unlikely to run the power down to the last second and most charges are top ups and this makes them a fairly quick turn around at a fast charge point.

It depends on whether the car had been used up to the time they had to do the long journey ,and were "expecting" the infrastructure to be up to what is marketed by companies involved 

Hopefully, the infrastructure will come on line quicker in the next 10 years. 

Just come across this Andrew Ditton video on YouTube which gives a slightly more positive view of the future and possibilities for continuing our hobby post ICE's Link

David

It needs to be as even the  Hybrids in our road have to use grassed recreation areas to get close to their houses in our road to charge their vehicles

And our LA and Mr Shapps our MP cannot answer how it can be done here

I've watched it and I am aghast at the underlying and glib suggestion that there are no problems and all will be well with caravanning in the EV future.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe we must seriously cut back on both toxic emissions and greenhouse gas production, including primarily CO2 in our case.  I also believe that we therefore may have to be forced into some changes and compromises to our lifestyle.  However, does that mean we must kill off the caravanning industry ?  If it does, then we must be open and truthful about it, not pretend that it will all be alright on the night.

1. Vehicle towing weight limits

The suggestion is that we can simply change to caravans with laden weights of less than 1 tonne is not a small change.  It is a total departure from today's style of caravans.  Sure we have all seen some of the new ultra lightweight caravans, which do appeal to some, but it will always be a limited market and only offered limited benefits over a trailer tent, or indeed just a tent.  They are also only OK for couples (only two beds), not families.

The video then shows a pick-up towing an Airstream.  Just to point out, there will never be an all-electric car capable of towing one of those in the next 10 or 15 years. if ever.  You will have to buy a truck. How's that for an environmental improvement?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, tow cars are not just about caravanning either.  For example, we regularly also tow a horse trailer, which has a laden weight of around 2.1 tonnes (with 2 average sized horses).  The construction industry needs to be able to tow trailers carrying materials or small items of plant (such as a small digger).  Above all, the farming industry relies on various trailers to move feed, animals and equipment - all towing weights well above the current 1 tonne EV limit and there is nothing in the video to suggest that that will go up to 2 tonnes or the 3.5 tonnes the specialised 4WD diesel powered tow cars presently achieve.

Most family twin-axle caravans have max laden weights of 1.7 to 2 tonnes and that is calculated using current and ridiculously low payloads.  Most 4 berth single axle caravans are in the 1.4 to 1.7 tonnes range and the 2 berth models 1.2 to 1.5 tonnes.   They are already made very light and tend to be poorly constructed as a result.

This is what we mean by when we refer to the caravan industry being under threat.  I am talking about touring caravans, not a tent with rigid walls.

2, Actual payloads

BTW, the above weights all assume the irresponsible low payloads the whole caravan industry tries to con buyers into accepting.  Why irresponsible ? - because, as a result, just about every caravan on the road is overloaded !

Put a (normal) 12v battery, two gas bottles, (empty) Aquaroll, a couple of chairs, a couple of extension leads, a TV, bedding, towels and tea towels, glasses, crockery, cutlery, cooking pots, utensils etc, foil, paper towel and wipes, washing up stuff, some toilet and bathroom gear, fire extinguisher and fire blanket, cleaning fluids etc, basic tool and spares kit, stack and levelling pads and you have used up about 120kg.  I only have a 126kg payload on my current caravan.

Note: the above contents do not include any food, drink or clothing, let alone an awning, sunshade, windbreak, motor mover or bicycles on the supplied rack on the back. Most of these items must travel in the car, which consumes 150-170 kg of my car's payload, but are all part of the overall weight being propelled by the car. An EV tow car needs to be able to provide the whole package.

3. Towing range

The video was at least realistic in suggesting, for route planning purposes, that a range of 100miles was about the limit when towing (using a 2021 EV with a 1 tonne caravan).  It also explained that there were real technical difficulties providing a significant towing weight (I think he implied that the cars drivetrain would simple not be strong enough).

He did not even mention the lack of availability and reliability of charging points and showed just one example of a charging area that could accommodate a car and caravan.

Adding a battery and motors to the caravan was mentioned, but not the fact that that too would need charging, the impact of the extra weight, the reliability of batteries that would be rarely used and a target for thieves, let alone the extra cost.

4. The Cost

This is where fantasy land takes over.  £70k+ Teslas, £50k for something less.  £40k for a small "affordable" EVs.  Really!

in 2012, I bought a 2010 Nissan X-trail for less than £24k and still have it.  It can legally tow up to 2.2tonnes, and it regularly tows a 1.8t twin axle van and a 2.1t horse trailer with ease.  With 4WD and now fitted with Yokohama all-terrain tyres, does not slip on grass or when pulling away on wet uphill roads.  Four Adult seats and plenty of space in the back for the gear I cannot carry in the caravan. Enough payload capacity as well.  Even a drawer and space under the boot floor for easy access to tools and trailer gear.  We use a smaller car for local and non-towing trips and I am open minded on the idea of an EV (just not the cost of a new one).

I will keep it going for as long as I can, but it will be 20 years old in 2030, so what do I replace it with and when?  Well I won't be able to afford a new all-electric tow car, even if one exists that can tow over 2t.  It is not clear if any equivalent 4WD diesel tow car will be available in the 2020s from any manufacturer (including the next generation X-Trail).  The door is already closing fast.

The price issue is another big problem with EVs.   It is not just the retired that cannot afford a new one, neither can many in work and where do young first-time drivers get one from at an affordable price to buy and insure?

Car ownership, caravan ownership (and the rest) are entire eco-systems that cannot be replaced in just 10 years.  It is nonsense.

5. Why do it?

I started by agreeing that we need to cut our CO2 emissions and I still believe that, but we do not need to cut everything.  We just need to move quickly to cutting back, doing what we can where we can and improving / reducing emissions where we cannot (or until we have the technical means to change).  If 10% - 20% of cars still have a diesel engine, that will not kill the planet.  There are many other more useful and workable steps we can take.

I understand if occasionally lines of caravans travelling to holiday resorts can be a pain to others, but we are not flying overseas and we are not competing with local residents to buy up their houses and use them as holiday homes.  We appreciate the countryside we visit and support local tourism and businesses.  In doing so, we support the entire caravan and motorhome industry, much of which is UK based.

Perhaps one day a wind powered Hydrogen plant can fuel an appropriate replacement tow car and the diesel can then be consigned to history, but there is no sign that will happen in the next 10 years.  Meanwhile the clubs and manufacturer's need to get real before it is too late.

Whilst the cutoff date for ICE is 2030, the availability of suitable tow cars might significantly dwindle well before then. Anyone thinking of getting one might be well advised to get one by about 2025 at the latest.

Airborne said:- I've watched it and I am aghast at the underlying and glib suggestion that there are no problems and all will be well with caravanning in the EV future.

I think you are doing Andrew a misservice by suggesting it was glib because perhaps you don't agree with what he is saying. All he was doing was giving a possible glimpse into the future and offering a possible way forward. This thread has been almost overwhelmingly negative, perhaps understandably so. The purpose of posting the video was just to show how things might change. 

Regarding his own outfit. He did live in his caravan and toured for eight years. He also lives in the Outer Hebrides which might have influenced his choice?

Rather than caravans I was more interested in what he said about motorhomes and it would seem that. compared to current prices, having electric would probably add a £20000 premium to what we pay today. 

The change will not happen for the next ten years and the truth is that ICE will be around for at least another 10 years after that, so in some ways this is an academic discussion. Many of us will have probably given up on our touring days by then and those coming into the hobby in the next few years will be aware of the changes and probably cut their cloth accordingly.

Just a point on the cost of EV's regardless of towing capability. The cheapest on the market currently are in the region of £25/30000 after Government grants. Apparently Dacia (owned by Renault) are hoping to have a sub €20000 on the market in Europe in the next year. Not everyone's choice I expect and probably no good as a towcar but what it might do is to start a general price reduction.

David

Honda have announced no pure ICE cars for the European market after 2022, who will be next.

The current plan involves 3 nuclear power plants. So far we have spent 20 years on the first one and the best guess for completion is a further 20 years. Does pie in the sky strike a chord.

Regards,

Ray