The Amended Red Guide re User owns cylinders!!

Merve replied on 14/11/2018 16:43

Posted on 14/11/2018 16:43

I now post the relevant section of the NEW AMENDED RED GUIDE regarding the use of user owned cylinders. This should be sufficient to convince the most hardened cynic of it’s existence! The technical dept at East Grinstead should now be in possession of the facts. As caravanners, we should welcome this new Guide with open arms. Hopefully, this will start a new era for cheaper gas- much cheaper gas!  Safefill complies with both these requirements. ✔️ I cannot speak for any other brand. Thanks.

 

Portable LPG cylinders
22) Gas supplier owned cylinders: Cylinders supplied on an exchange empty for full basis are owned by the gas supplier and are designed to be filled by weight. It is a requirement that only the owner or their authorised filler may refill the cylinders.
61
GUIDANCE ON MANAGING THE RISKS OF FIRE AND EXPLOSION
Customer refillable cylinders
23) Cylinders that are designed to be refilled by the public should be of a type that is recognisable by the forecourt operator and incorporate the following safety features:
− Be fitted with an overfill prevention device, that prevents the cylinder being filled
above 80 % of its capacity.✔️
− Have a fill valve compatible with the nozzle of an autogas dispenser.✔️
It is recommended that where the refilling of cylinders is being allowed a sign headed 'Cylinder filling operation' covering the responsibilities of the filler be displayed on or adjacent to the autogas dispenser(s). The sign should include the following:
− This site allows the filling of cylinders specifically designed to be filled from an
autogas dispenser.
− Do not fill any cylinder that has suffered any damage or that is out of test date.
− In the event of a leak or overfilling – stop filling immediately and notify the site
operator.
Should a forecourt operator choose not to allow these cylinders to be filled on their premises, it is recommended that:
− clear signage is displayed on or near the autogas dispenser(s) stating that
cylinders may not be filled,
− their personnel are trained to refuse the refilling of cylinders.
To enable cylinders that are designed to be filled by volume to be filled from autogas dispensers, the forecourt operator should comply with the requirements of DSEAR in that they have:
− Carried out a risk assessment then implemented suitable and sufficient control
measures.
− Trained their staff to ensure that the cylinder is placed level and upright before
authorising the dispenser.
− Trained their staff to recognise the incidents that may occur during the refilling of
cylinders and the action to take as the result of an incident involving a cylinder.
A supplier or manufacturer of cylinders that are designed to be refilled from autogas dispensers may provide means by which a forecourt operator may recognise their cylinders.
Additional information is available from the UKLPG.
LPG containers attached to vehicles
(24) LPG containers that are securely attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking purposes may be filled from the autogas dispenser on the provision that they:
− remain in situ for filling;
− are fitted with an internal device to physically prevent filling beyond 80% of the
full capacity; and
− have a fixed filling connection external to the vehicle.
Adaptors for autogas filling
25) Dispensers on UK forecourts are fitted with nozzles to connect onto vehicle 'bayonet' filling connections, however vehicles, especially from continental Europe, may have other designs of filling connections so drivers then carry adaptors so that they can fill at any forecourt autogas dispenser.
26) Site operators should have a policy in place for the use of adaptors, this could be that the use of adaptors is not permitted. Alternatively, should they have satisfied themselves that they have identified and implemented the control measures that address the additional risks associated with the use of adaptors, they may consider their use. Their policy should be included in the training of forecourt staff.

Tinwheeler replied on 15/11/2018 10:36

Posted on 15/11/2018 10:03 by

I would have thought that, with a motorhome, a refillable LPG tank with a fixed external filler might be very convenient giving the ability to top up LPG when also refueling the base vehicle. Have you thought about what tank volume you might require Steve? 

Posted on 15/11/2018 10:36

The drawback being that you have to find a garage selling lpg as opposed to being able to exchange a conventional bottle at sites, Calor dealers and so on. In some areas garages selling lpg are few and far between.

The other drawback with underslung tanks is the difficulty encountered at some ports and the Tunnel in isolating the tank. Some have remote isolator switches, some not. 

SteveL replied on 15/11/2018 10:36

Posted on 15/11/2018 10:03 by

I would have thought that, with a motorhome, a refillable LPG tank with a fixed external filler might be very convenient giving the ability to top up LPG when also refueling the base vehicle. Have you thought about what tank volume you might require Steve? 

Posted on 15/11/2018 10:36

I was thinking of just the one 11kg Gaslow. As any off grid will be limited and two eats into the payload. We could upgrade to 2 x 11kg, which the locker accommodates, if we found we require more reserves.

replied on 15/11/2018 10:57

Posted on 15/11/2018 10:36 by SteveL

I was thinking of just the one 11kg Gaslow. As any off grid will be limited and two eats into the payload. 

Posted on 15/11/2018 10:57

The user and all related content has been Deleted User

replied on 15/11/2018 10:59

Posted on 15/11/2018 10:59

Seems a sensible and convenient size Steve. I suppose that if the MH is parked up for the day off site whilst you go off for a walk etc that you may wish to use LPG for the fridge which would increase your usage  compared to being sited on EHU with a caravan

SteveL replied on 15/11/2018 13:03

Posted on 15/11/2018 10:30 by

Steve,

Do be careful to get a UK filler bayonet connection as standard.  The one I have is a screw which accepts four different adaptors, including the UK bayonet.  If you read the revised advice you will find that they suggest these could be a problem, sighting foreign van coming to the UK with adaptors.  I can fill virtually anywhere in Europe but it would seem that adaptors could now be frowned upon in the UK.  We are such a friendly bunch undecided.

Posted on 15/11/2018 13:03

Thanks DD, useful advice.

richardandros replied on 15/11/2018 13:45

Posted on 15/11/2018 13:45

I would just like to say a big 'thank you' to Merve for putting me onto Safefill through this forum. I managed to get one of the last ones available in the north of England a couple of months ago (I hope production has started again) and I haven't looked back.  I have a garage about 5 miles away that refills it and that will do for me. I can easily make sure we always go away with a full cylinder, so searching about for other suppliers isn't an issue for me.

I bought it - not to save money on gas (we don't use that much) - but to save weight in the van and have now ditched the two steel cylinders we previously carried in favour of one 7.5kg Safefill.

Very pleased!

 

Navigateur replied on 15/11/2018 14:30

Posted on 15/11/2018 14:30

Should a forecourt operator choose not to allow these cylinders to be filled on their premises, it is recommended that:
− clear signage is displayed on or near the autogas dispenser(s) stating that cylinders may not be filled

This seems to suggest that puting up a couple of stickers to say "NO" is a much more cost effective option than all the ongoing training and monitoring to permit self-fill, especially considering the very low increase in LPG sales that might occur.

RowenaBCAMC replied on 15/11/2018 15:18

Posted on 15/11/2018 15:18

Thanks for the update Merve and for sharing. smile

I have feedback from our Technical team, please see below: 

User-refillable LPG cylinders have been available for some years, notably from suppliers such as Gaslow, Safefill and GAS IT. Refilling has been available at a range of outlets including some caravan/motorhome dealers, industrial gas suppliers, LPG outlets and a limited range of petrol filling stations (lists of outlets are usually available from the cylinder suppliers). The widespread acceptability of using user-refillable LPG cylinders at automotive filling stations which have dispensers for automotive LPG has been a long-standing issue, however, with guidance to filling station operators being less than ideal in their ‘bible’ for safe operations, the so-called ‘Red Guide’. Some operators (e.g. Morrisons) have been permitting refillable cylinders to be used (specifically those from Safefill). Others have not permitted such cylinders to be refilled on their forecourts. This has made the situation difficult for those users who are interested in taking up this option to know whether the fairly high purchase price of the equipment will be worthwhile, as ready access to filling stations where the cheaper automotive LPG can be sourced is a major advantage when judging whether the cost/benefit adds up.

Discussions during 2017 with interested parties from across this debate determined improved advice for filling stations. It has taken some while for the authors of the Red Guide to incorporate this into the published version, however. Thankfully, the new version of the Red Guide dated 18 October 2018 is now available, see here. The relevant pages are p61-63.

While this guidance does make it easier for a filling station to permit user refilling of cylinders and habitation fixed tanks, it’s worth noting a few key issues:

·         Refilling of exchangeable cylinders (standard Calor cylinders and such like) remains prohibited – these can only be refilled by the cylinder owner, not the end user

·         Filling stations are not obliged to offer refilling of user-refillable cylinders, but they can choose to do so if they wish

·         Cylinders must meet a sensible specification to ensure adequate safety

·         Refilling of fixed habitation tanks, or cylinders designed for refilling in situ is permitted, but only via a fixed filling connection external to the vehicle

Time will tell what proportion of filling stations choose to offer this facility, but hopefully the revised guidance will result in improved access to filling points for those users wanting to take up this technology. Anyone using or considering these cylinders is strongly encouraged to follow all the relevant safety guidance and filling station directions – it’s important that filling stations see us as a responsible sector if we want to see wider provision of filling points.

replied on 15/11/2018 16:24

Posted on 15/11/2018 10:59 by

Seems a sensible and convenient size Steve. I suppose that if the MH is parked up for the day off site whilst you go off for a walk etc that you may wish to use LPG for the fridge which would increase your usage  compared to being sited on EHU with a caravan

Posted on 15/11/2018 16:24

The user and all related content has been Deleted User
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